The Art of Vegan Pastry: Insights from Black Cat Baking

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:25

I'm Chris Lindstrom and this is the Food About Town podcast.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:30

Rochester.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:30

Well, why Rochester?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:33

Chris Lindstrom was a hoot.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:35

He was just so much fun.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:37

He never stopped talking.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:39

I mean, it was great.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:42

Here's a good idea.

John: 00:01:43

Have a point.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:45

It makes it so much more interesting.

John: 00:01:47

For the listener and we don't need.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:49

Any characters around to give the joint atmosphere.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:01:52

Is that clear?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:53

Because I'm a pro.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:54

That's what pros do.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:56

I'm a professional.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:57

Look it up in the book.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:01:58

But now, yeah, I'm thinking I'm back.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:02

And we are back with another episode of the Food About Town podcast.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:06

And first off, as we're starting today's recording of Black Cat Baking, wanted to apologize to John, who's in the studio with us.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:16

How you doing today, man?

John: 00:02:17

Even better than yesterday.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:20

Even better.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:21

Because yesterday we messed up the recording.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:23

We got 35 minutes into the recording and realized that I had the completely wrong inputs on the.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:30

On the recording.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:32

I always found it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:33

I always enjoy just saying, like, when you make mistakes.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:36

Yeah, it's on this kind of stuff.

John: 00:02:38

It's fine.

John: 00:02:39

I feel like a crisp $1 bill.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:42

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:43

So and so.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:44

Yes, we're back.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:45

Today we're recording.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:47

And what I wanted to do right away is let everybody know.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:52

Where can people find Black Cat?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:55

Is it Black Cat baking?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:56

Is it Black Cake bakery?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:57

What is it called?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:58

Actually?

John: 00:02:58

Baking company.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:02:59

Baking company.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:01

Where can people find Black Cat baked goods?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:04

All around Rochester.

John: 00:03:06

Ugly Duck Coffee, Monday through Saturday, grass fed.

John: 00:03:13

I don't know.

John: 00:03:13

What do they.

John: 00:03:14

What do they call them?

John: 00:03:14

So it's a vegan deli.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:15

Vegan glass, grass fed butcher shop.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:18

Yeah.

John: 00:03:18

Okay.

John: 00:03:18

Yep.

John: 00:03:19

On Saturdays.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:21

Yep.

John: 00:03:21

And then abundance co op.

John: 00:03:25

It's probably.

John: 00:03:26

They're probably there all week, but I drop stuff off on Wednesday and Saturday.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:29

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:30

That's awesome.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:31

So I just want to dive right in because we went through a lot of the history yesterday and I've been organizing my thoughts.

John: 00:03:38

Okay.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:39

All day.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:39

A little bit.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:41

I'm hoping to be a little more organized.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:43

I make no guarantees because my first food was about 35 minutes ago for the day.

John: 00:03:49

Oh, dear.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:51

It's been a long day of work.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:54

So what I want to do is.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:56

Let's start with.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:03:58

Let's start with your journey from learning how to do pastry and getting to, you know, getting back to Rochester.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:07

Because you grew up here, right?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:04:08

Yep.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:09

And you were here until when?

John: 00:04:13

2004.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:15

So: 2004

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:17

And you'd been working in culinary.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:20

Just doing jobs.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:04:21

Yeah.

John: 00:04:22

I wouldn't say I worked at good places, you know, like, I know, you know, people want to be like, oh, I've been doing it for almost 30 years.

John: 00:04:28

And that's true.

John: 00:04:28

But it's not like I worked at every place was really great.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:31

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:32

You know, what kind of places did you work at?

John: 00:04:34

Here, let me think.

John: 00:04:36

My first job was making pretzels at the mall.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:38

Ooh, nice.

John: 00:04:39

Which I hated that job.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:41

Was that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:41

Was that a.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:42

Was that a notable national chain of pretzels, or is that a local place?

John: 00:04:46

It was a New York state chain.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:48

Okay.

John: 00:04:50

I hated that job, but I would have hated any job when I was a teenager.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:04:55

Were you that kind of teenager where working was like, yo, I have to get a job working for the man kind of thing?

John: 00:05:01

Well, my mom basically forced me to get a job.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:04

Yeah.

John: 00:05:04

As soon as I turned 16.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:06

Was that a, like, necessity, or were you.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:10

Were you the kind of kid where you needed.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:12

She knew you needed to do something that wasn't just doing everything else you were doing?

John: 00:05:17

Probably that.

John: 00:05:18

I probably wouldn't have left my room.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:21

Yeah.

John: 00:05:21

You know, I would just stay there drinking Mountain Dew and playing guitar, man.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:26

It's one of my garbage person things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:28

I love Diet Mountain Dew so much.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:31

Still one of my favorite flavors.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:33

It's awful, but I still love it.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:05:35

I don't.

John: 00:05:35

I don't touch the stuff anymore.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:38

You don't want to get into the hard stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:40

The Mountain Dews.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:42

So you're doing all the jobs around Rochester, and eventually you.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:48

I think you said you'd move to Boston first, right?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:51

Yep.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:52

So you moved to Boston at What point?

John: 00:05:56

So: 2005

Chris Lindstrom: 00:05:57

Yep.

John: 00:05:58

I have been.

John: 00:06:01

That's.

John: 00:06:02

That year I had been working at a bar, which is now the Daily Refresher.

John: 00:06:07

At the time, it was the Blue Room.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:08

Okay.

John: 00:06:11

As a bar.

John: 00:06:12

Back door guy.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:13

Yeah.

John: 00:06:14

It was pretty rough on Alexander street at the time.

John: 00:06:16

There's always very large men beating the crap out of each other.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:19

What else can I say?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:20

e frame, maybe a little after: 2005

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:32

You lived in that area.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:34

And we would go around, and it was a different vibe at the time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:37

It was a little.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:38

It was a little bouncier, I guess.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:06:40

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:40

You'd say at the time, there was.

John: 00:06:42

A lot of people, but there was also a lot of fighting.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:45

It was very busy.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:46

Like, Friday nights were so hectic on a street.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:49

It was.

John: 00:06:50

Oh, traffic was stopped.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:51

It was jam Packed.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:06:53

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:53

I remember trying to park near my friend's house.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:56

They were like near the corner of park in Alexander.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:06:59

And trying to park over there on a Friday was impossible.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:02

The amount of people.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:07:03

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:04

Like, that street was thick with people from 8 o'clock till 2 every Friday and Saturday.

John: 00:07:10

Eventually I just started walking.

John: 00:07:11

If I was drinking.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:12

Oh, yeah.

John: 00:07:13

If I was working, I could park behind the bar because we'd be there very late and I didn't want to walk home.

John: 00:07:17

But yeah, I lived on.

John: 00:07:19

On Marshall street at the time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:21

Okay.

John: 00:07:22

And like, the street lights didn't work at the time over there.

John: 00:07:25

They're like.

John: 00:07:25

There weren't businesses over there, you know.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:27

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:28

It's not like it's thick with businesses now, but it's even there where, you know, depending on your.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:35

Depending on your tolerance for being around, you know, different city neighborhoods.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:07:40

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:41

Like if.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:42

If they were some of my customers with dominate who are like east side people going to Marshall street seems.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:47

Ooh, that's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:48

Oh, that's questionable.

John: 00:07:50

That's fine.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:51

I know, right?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:52

I.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:52

I still get a lot of that from people where they're like, oh, I don't go to Main Streets, you know, during night time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:07:57

I'm like, what are you talking about?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:07:59

Okay.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:00

Oh, it's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:01

The amount of stuff you hear when you're working with people is just wild.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:05

So anyway, so.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:07

So you would.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:08

You're ending up going to Boston and you end up there in like the early, you know, the mid aughts.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:16

And at that point you were going just to go.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:19

Were you going for a reason just.

John: 00:08:22

To not live in Rochester anymore?

John: 00:08:23

Yeah, we.

John: 00:08:24

We had to get out.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:25

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:26

Well, it's a very common story though, Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:28

I mean, you know, and I think it's a different mentality nowadays for looking at what Rochester is, but for many people of that age, there's this desperation to get to something new because you got to go to the bigger place.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:44

There's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:44

That's the opportunity.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:45

There's something going on.

John: 00:08:46

You know, we were all raised on Bruce Springsteen and the like.

John: 00:08:49

Like, we got to get out of here and we're going to die.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:51

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:08:52

So you end up in Boston and continuing to work in hospitality.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:08:57

Yeah.

John: 00:08:58

Eventually.

John: 00:08:59

I think I was trying to get out.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:01

Okay.

John: 00:09:01

At the time.

John: 00:09:02

And I didn't really know what I wanted to do.

John: 00:09:03

So what?

John: 00:09:04

I.

John: 00:09:05

I had a bunch of bullshit jobs that I eventually quit.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:09

Yeah.

John: 00:09:09

And I was working at a poster warehouse.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:14

Okay.

John: 00:09:14

With my partner because she knew all the poster stuff because she used to work at poster art On Monroe Ave.

John: 00:09:19

Oh, wow.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:20

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:21

That's another one of those places that, you know, had had a specific moment where it was a hub for a certain kind of people.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:09:29

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:29

And now it's still.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:31

Is it still open?

John: 00:09:32

I remember hearing it was closing, but I.

John: 00:09:34

But I swear it's still open.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:36

I think there's a lot of places like that that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:39

I think I was talking with Polygo about that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:41

He's like, man, we'd sell so much more if we just put a going out of business sign out front of every sauce thing everywhere in Rochester and never actually close.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:50

Like, a lot of the furnit stores that are constantly going out of business forever.

John: 00:09:54

That's the classic furniture store grift.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:09:57

I just love that that is still going on in like 20.

John: 00:10:01

24 decades of it going out of.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:10:03

Business 20 years running.

John: 00:10:05

I know if you don't buy this weekend, it might really happen.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:10:11

So you're in there, you're bouncing around, and you find your way back into hospitality.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:10:18

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:10:19

And you're doing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:10:21

You know, I think what we were talking about on your way out is you ended up working in different cafes and different places like that.

John: 00:10:29

Yeah, I worked at.

John: 00:10:32

Well, let me think.

John: 00:10:32

Getting back into it, because we quit the poster place after it moved.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:10:36

Yeah.

John: 00:10:37

It was too far away and it wasn't fun anymore.

John: 00:10:42

I briefly got a job working at a very famous burger place in Harvard Square, which was not a great job.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:10:51

I'm sure I was probably.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:10:52

I'm sure I went there around that time.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:10:56

Yeah.

John: 00:10:56

his was probably to the early: 2006

Chris Lindstrom: 00:10:59

Yeah.

John: 00:10:59

I met a great friend of mine there because he started the day after me, and then I quit the day after him because I remember when my shift ended and I could hear some murmuring.

John: 00:11:08

It's a tiny place in a tiny line.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:10

Yeah.

John: 00:11:10

I can hear some murmuring of, oh, maybe somebody didn't show up.

John: 00:11:13

And I was like, I got to get the out of here.

John: 00:11:14

They're gonna make me stay.

John: 00:11:16

It's just like, okay, I'm done.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:11:17

See ya.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:18

Yeah.

John: 00:11:18

I get home and there's a message on my answering machine from my friend Jeff, who's like, hey, I just decided there's no way I could ever go to that place again.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:29

Is that the Jeff we were talking about yesterday?

John: 00:11:32

No, this is different Jeff.

John: 00:11:33

This dude's from Massachusetts.

John: 00:11:34

Okay.

John: 00:11:36

He's like, I'm at a bar, so.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:38

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:11:38

Yeah.

John: 00:11:38

Good luck with your career there.

John: 00:11:42

So then I quit.

John: 00:11:43

And I was a temp.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:44

Yeah.

John: 00:11:45

And the only time I worked in an office, it's it.

John: 00:11:48

It's so boring.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:49

Oh, it can be.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:50

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:51

I think, you know, it depends on the person.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:53

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:54

And it's something.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:11:56

Something I've always enjoyed learning about people is.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:00

It's something I've always been okay with, is doing the.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:05

Doing the day job and having everything else on the side.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:12:09

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:09

It's something I'm good with.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:11

It's something I've.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:12

I've become accustomed to, I guess, is I like the stability of, you know, a respectable day job.

John: 00:12:21

Sure.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:22

Where I'm doing my.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:23

You know, I'm doing my stuff, I'm doing a good job, I'm enjoying what I do.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:27

But my passion projects are all on the side.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:12:30

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:30

My wife, on the other hand, Carrie, she.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:32

She couldn't do that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:34

She cared too much, and she couldn't work the day job when they didn't care.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:40

Like she cared.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:12:41

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:41

Like, she puts everything into everything she does, and if they're not doing things the right way, it hurts her.

John: 00:12:47

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:48

And I can separate my.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:50

I can separate my day job from everything else I do and my.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:54

And my personal life.

John: 00:12:55

That's a good skill to have.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:57

And I.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:57

I don't.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:58

I.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:58

Here's the thing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:59

I don't.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:12:59

I never treat it like a value proposition.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:02

I don't think it's a positive or a negative.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:05

I think it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:06

It facilitates what I do, and it lets me make the choices I want to make about how I do what I do.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:13

I don't have to.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:15

I don't have to struggle every day.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:17

But also with the things I do on the side, I can choose to do it with the values I want to have.

John: 00:13:23

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:23

Without having.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:24

I don't have to compromise any of that with everything else I do.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:28

Mm.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:28

I can choose to do it my way, and if it doesn't work out, it's on my terms.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:34

And not because I couldn't.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:36

I couldn't raise money.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:13:38

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:38

Or because I gotten myself in a tough spot where I couldn't get this done this month.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:43

I do it the way I want to do it when I want to do it, which is.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:46

It's a luxury.

John: 00:13:47

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:49

But it's because I can.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:51

You know, I'm good with doing the day job.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:13:53

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:54

That facilitates that.

John: 00:13:55

Yeah.

John: 00:13:55

And, you know, not everybody's good at that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:57

No.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:13:58

And obviously that's not your path.

John: 00:14:01

No.

John: 00:14:02

Also, it was probably because I was a temp, so there wasn't a lot of work for me to do.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:14:06

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:14:07

And probably not.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:14:08

Probably not the same kind of value add work.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:14:11

Value add and you know, valuable and some satisfying work that I do in my day job.

John: 00:14:18

And they would just be like, oh, my God, thank you.

John: 00:14:20

You found that file.

John: 00:14:21

And I'm like, it's alphabetical.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:14:28

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:14:28

It's not satisfying office work or analysis and other stuff like that.

John: 00:14:33

It was a financial aid office of a college.

John: 00:14:36

I was just putting labels on files.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:14:38

And you're a body at a time.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:14:40

Yeah.

John: 00:14:40

Putting files away, and they're like, oh, my God, you found that.

John: 00:14:44

You put all that away already.

John: 00:14:46

I'm like, this is 20 minutes of work.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:14:48

It shows you the level of attempts that they were getting general.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:14:52

So you're bouncing around, and then you get back into things.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:14:57

Yeah.

John: 00:14:57

So when I was working there, I was at a party.

John: 00:15:01

One of my friends, a bunch of my friends had worked at the Said Cafe.

John: 00:15:05

And I kept saying I didn't want to work there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:15:08

Yeah.

John: 00:15:09

And I think even then I said I didn't want to work there.

John: 00:15:11

But one friend was like, just come down and say hi sometime after work.

John: 00:15:15

And I'm like, okay.

John: 00:15:16

So I came down and say hi, and he's like, can you start on Monday?

John: 00:15:20

That's not why I came here.

John: 00:15:21

But I don't really like being a temp, so.

John: 00:15:25

Sure.

John: 00:15:25

I'll give up at the time.

John: 00:15:27

Sweet.

John: 00:15:27

$13 an hour for $6.75.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:15:29

Oh, nice.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:15:31

Yeah.

John: 00:15:32

Cutting my pay in half.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:15:34

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:15:35

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:15:36

So what kind of place was that?

John: 00:15:38

I end up working there for many years.

John: 00:15:43

You know, it was like.

John: 00:15:44

Like half vegetarian.

John: 00:15:45

We were trying to add more vegetarian stuff.

John: 00:15:47

Half meat stuff.

John: 00:15:49

It was like sandwiches and wraps.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:15:50

Yeah.

John: 00:15:51

Fairly mediocre, but people loved it.

John: 00:15:52

Nachos.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:15:54

Yeah.

John: 00:15:54

Made in the microwave.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:15:56

Now, this is a place I've heard about on the podcast multiple times.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:00

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:00

So a lot of beer.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:02

Well, and I've heard about this place because if I remember correctly, this is place where we have other Rochester people that worked there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:08

Right.

John: 00:16:09

Yeah.

John: 00:16:09

I'm wearing the sweatshirt today, actually.

John: 00:16:11

It's the other side.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:12

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:16:12

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:13

So multiple people that are now, like, staples of the Rochester community in food.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:18

And Bev worked there basically at that same time.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:16:22

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:24

And that was Brian Van Etten.

John: 00:16:26

He worked there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:27

Was that around the same time?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:16:29

Yeah.

John: 00:16:29

He started before me, but I know he wasn't.

John: 00:16:32

I don't think he was there that long.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:34

Okay.

John: 00:16:35

At most a year, but I think it was less than a year because he.

John: 00:16:38

When to do something else.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:39

Yeah.

John: 00:16:39

So.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:40

So Brian had worked there.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:16:41

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:42

Jeff Ching had worked there.

John: 00:16:43

Jeff worked there a long time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:44

Yeah.

John: 00:16:45

He became more of, like, the office Guy.

John: 00:16:46

And then really good at that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:48

I think Andrea Perros also worked there, Right?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:16:50

Yep.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:51

Because I remember, you know, BV talking about that when I interviewed him, probably the first time.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:16:56

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:16:57

When they were opening, I think when they're opening the playhouse.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:00

And he went on his amazing rant about his disdain for people talking about parking in Rochester.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:07

Oh, yeah, I need to go back and clip that out one of these days.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:10

Just.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:11

Just to like bring that up after this many years.

John: 00:17:15

I can't.

John: 00:17:16

I've been hearing that complaint for 20 some odd years.

John: 00:17:19

I don't know.

John: 00:17:19

There's nowhere to park.

John: 00:17:20

The fuck are you talking about?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:22

Although I do have to.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:24

I do have to shout out the complete.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:27

Are you subscribed to the Pizza Wizard?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:17:30

Yes.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:30

The Pizza wizard mailing list.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:17:32

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:33

Um, it is.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:34

It is by far.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:36

So the Pizza wizard mailing list is the most chaotic marketing thing in the entirety of Rochester, bar none.

John: 00:17:44

It's very Brian.

John: 00:17:45

I mean, we've known each other since we were teenagers.

John: 00:17:47

Yeah, it's.

John: 00:17:47

It's very him.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:48

I absolutely adore it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:17:51

Every time it comes in, I read the entire thing and I'm like, every time I read it, I say, I can't believe that he's actually sending this every week.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:03

And it makes me so happy that that's the kind of thing he can do and still bring the customers he wants to bring.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:11

It just makes me so happy.

John: 00:18:13

He's always been good at that and organizing people and coming up with ways to keep people interested or happy.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:19

Well, and it's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:20

It's genuine.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:21

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:21

And it's completely not genuine at all.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:24

But it's also so genuinely something that he would do.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:18:28

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:28

And that's like.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:31

There's such a dearth of personality in restaurants, a lot of places around Rochester.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:38

You know, businesses don't have personality.

John: 00:18:41

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:41

And there's something about that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:43

When you see it, you're like, God damn.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:45

Like, I want to know what's going on there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:47

I want.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:48

I need to go see what's going on.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:50

And I just.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:52

I'm glad I got to talk about it today.

John: 00:18:54

It's a creative writing exercise.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:56

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:18:57

So you knew Brian from when you were in Rochester?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:18:59

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:19:00

Yeah.

John: 00:19:01

Well, we're both from Fairport.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:02

Okay.

John: 00:19:03

And Rory, I guess, or I guess Rory's not technically from Fairport, but he moved there in like 8th grade or something.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:10

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:10

So you guys knew each other from then.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:12

And I think we were talking on the way out that you guys actually played.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:15

You guys did music together as well?

John: 00:19:17

We were in a Bad band.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:18

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:19:18

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:19

Well, it's at that age.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:20

That sounds about right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:22

So what.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:23

What was the style and what were your aspirations at the time?

John: 00:19:27

I don't know if there were aspirations.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:29

Yeah, it's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:30

It's a little hard to say when you're teenagers that you had aspirations beyond.

John: 00:19:33

Having a good time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:34

Yeah.

John: 00:19:36

I don't know.

John: 00:19:38

I mean, we were just a shitty hardcore band.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:40

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:41

Just yelling a lot and getting everything out.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:44

What were.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:45

Were you.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:46

What was your role in that?

John: 00:19:47

I played guitar.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:48

Played guitar?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:19:49

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:50

You still play it all or you just.

John: 00:19:52

Oh, yeah, I've played.

John: 00:19:54

I've played nearly every day for over 30 years.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:56

Really?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:19:57

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:57

So what is it about it now for you?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:19:59

Is it just like a.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:00

Like a relaxation thing?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:02

Do you just enjoy the practice of doing it?

John: 00:20:05

I think it's the same as when I was 16.

John: 00:20:07

Yeah.

John: 00:20:08

I just forget what everything else that's going on.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:11

Yeah.

John: 00:20:11

I'm like, holy shit, that was three hours.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:15

Yeah.

John: 00:20:15

What happened?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:16

There's something special about those things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:19

It's something I value about doing this so much, is I can have just the longest day, and as soon as I sit down, all I have is this.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:31

And same thing with curling for me.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:32

So I'm a curler.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:33

My sports, curling.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:35

When I'm out there, I.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:38

The.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:38

The two hours goes by in a second.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:20:40

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:41

I don't think about anything when I'm out there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:43

It's actually where I met my wife.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:45

I met Gary at curling.

John: 00:20:46

Sweet.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:48

Her friend was on the same team as me, her friend at the time, and she brought her there to meet me, and I had no idea was happening.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:20:56

So she was watching the aim through the glass, started making faces at me, and, you know, we eventually started.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:02

Started dating and everything else, but is.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:06

Because, like, when I'm there, I'm all in.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:10

It's the only thing I'm thinking about.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:12

Like, she played for a bit and then quit because she couldn't stop thinking about art.

John: 00:21:16

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:17

Because that's her thing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:18

She can go in there and be lost for hours.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:21

And for me, curling and doing the podcast is my thing because it's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:26

It just gets me away from my own.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:29

Gets me away from my overthinking in my head and just being in the moment.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:34

Very few things get me out of that and that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:37

Those are two of the things that get me there.

John: 00:21:39

Great.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:40

Which is.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:41

It's kind of nice.

John: 00:21:41

It's good to have those things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:42

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:21:43

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:45

So.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:46

So it's so interesting that, like, you know, with all this, like, hey, you knew them when you were here, you're working at the same place for, you know, crossover a little bit there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:21:56

And where did you end up after that?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:00

In.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:00

In that area?

John: 00:22:02

Let me think.

John: 00:22:03

That was a couple years.

John: 00:22:05

Jay Rogers was also there.

John: 00:22:06

I don't know if you know him.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:07

Oh, I.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:08

I know Jay.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:08

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:09

I gotta get him over.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:10

It's been.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:11

It's been a while.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:12

I'm hoping to do some brewery.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:22:15

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:15

Sample stuff there when we have more beer for DeWolf.

John: 00:22:18

I think he started the week after me.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:21

That's what.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:21

You know, also.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:22

What a.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:22

What a genuine guy.

John: 00:22:24

Yeah, he's great.

John: 00:22:25

We used to.

John: 00:22:26

We had a practice space, a bunch of us, and we used to have a.

John: 00:22:29

I'd say we had a metal band, but, yeah.

John: 00:22:32

I mean, we would just drink beer and play metal riffs together.

John: 00:22:35

And it was fun.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:36

Just as well.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:22:37

Yeah.

John: 00:22:38

He met his wife there, too, at the other side.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:41

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:41

And I gotta say, like, you know, and that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:43

That whole crew is just a lot of people that end up caring really hard about what they do.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:49

And I've always gravitated to people that care hard like that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:54

Like, anytime we're into Jay, he's just such a genuine person.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:57

Running to Brian, like, he.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:22:58

He cares hard about what he does, but he, you know, he loves his family.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:01

He wants to spend time with them.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:23:02

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:03

And he's catered his life to do that better.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:06

And I so appreciate that he does what he does in the way he wants to do it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:11

And, you know, now is, hey, this is what I want to do.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:14

This is where I want to spend my time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:16

That's great.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:17

And also, every place that Jeff does, he's another person who's not very visible in Rochester.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:23

But his places, everybody knows and knows that they're good.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:23:26

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:28

Which if you're around the industry, we all like.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:30

Oh, that's at least because of him.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:33

But a lot of people have no idea that they're all related.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:38

And they're like, oh, yeah, all those places are really good.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:40

I'm like, yeah, there's ties to that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:42

There's a reason.

John: 00:23:43

It's the same people.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:45

So you bounce around Boston, you know, did some stuff after.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:51

I'm kind of jumping around because I already know part of the story.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:23:54

And then you ended up in Chicago.

John: 00:23:57

Yeah, that's why I left the cafe, is because we moved to Chicago.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:01

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:03

And you're working there for a while.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:05

I'm jumping over some of the other stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:07

And then you decided you wanted.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:10

You were going to go into.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:12

And learn.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:13

Learn pastry but specifically going to school for that.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:24:17

Yeah.

John: 00:24:18

I thought I should maybe be more serious about something because I hated waiting table so much.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:25

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:26

I can't imagine, like, I've, I've done so little work in hospitality.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:31

Like, when I say work, like, I did favors for people.

John: 00:24:35

Sure.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:35

Like, you know, my friend Chris Crockey over at the German House while he was, you know, he was hosting our events for nominate for a little while, which was wildly generous and still one of my favorite people in hospitality.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:50

You know, he does so many weddings and stuff over there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:52

He's like, hey, I need an extra person.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:54

You want to come do it?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:54

I'm like, yeah, fine.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:57

What am I doing?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:58

Like, you know, you're running tables.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:24:59

I'm like, cool.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:00

I don't care.

John: 00:25:00

Great.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:01

And this was like three years ago.

John: 00:25:02

Two.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:02

Three years ago.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:03

I'm like, yeah, fine.

John: 00:25:04

Something like that can be fun though.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:05

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:05

I don't.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:06

Whatever.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:06

Like, and it's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:07

I would have, you know, done it for free because he asked because, you know, he's my friend and I, I'm going to help out when I'm asked.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:25:15

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:15

Because, you know, he's not going to ask me unless he needs help.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:19

And that's, that's a great thing where, you know, you ask somebody, they're going to show up for you.

John: 00:25:23

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:25

Plus, it's like, yeah, all right, what am I going to do?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:26

Carry stuff?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:27

Go up and downstairs?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:28

Fine.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:29

I don't care.

John: 00:25:29

Oh, it's easy.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:30

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:31

I know how to be presentable.

John: 00:25:32

And again, that can be, you know, like one event that can be fun.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:36

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:37

If you're doing it every day, it's a very different thing.

John: 00:25:39

Yeah.

John: 00:25:39

It's a drag.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:25:40

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:40

Multiple times a day.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:43

So you end up going, going to, going to school.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:46

You're going.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:47

You went to a real pastry school and doing that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:25:51

And then you, you dive into actually working on that side of things.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:25:56

Yeah.

John: 00:25:58

You're supposed to do an externship as like after you graduate kind of thing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:03

Yeah.

John: 00:26:05

I think I couldn't do that one because I needed to make money and pay my rent and, you know, that's unpaid and.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:12

All.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:12

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:13

And that's the thing with a lot of those places.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:14

It's like a funnel to.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:26:16

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:16

To high end restaurants that don't want to pay people.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:26:19

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:19

It's one of those, like, not even dirty secrets anymore.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:22

It's like, it's a known dirty secret.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:26:25

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:26

That there's a lot of places that survive based on free labor.

John: 00:26:30

Totally.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:30

From those places.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:26:31

Oh, yeah, yeah.

John: 00:26:32

That's how so many things get done.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:34

Yeah.

John: 00:26:35

Yeah.

John: 00:26:37

Also, we were moving back to Boston before I would have been done with any of those things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:42

Yeah.

John: 00:26:43

Little unfortunate.

John: 00:26:44

I had somewhat of an inside track at the coveted Blackbird internship, but.

John: 00:26:51

But that wasn't going to happen.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:26:52

Yeah.

John: 00:26:54

The girlfriend of one of the line cooks who worked at the restaurant I worked at was on the pastry team at Blackbird, and she's like, they lived in my neighborhood, too.

John: 00:27:01

And they're like, oh, yeah, he can.

John: 00:27:03

He could just have that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:04

Wow.

John: 00:27:06

Although I think I was somewhat rude to her on the train one morning on the way to school, because it was five in the morning.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:13

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:13

On the.

John: 00:27:14

On the red Line.

John: 00:27:16

And she's like.

John: 00:27:17

Wants to chat, and I'm like, I just want to do the crossword, not talk to anybody.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:20

Yeah.

John: 00:27:20

Because I was waiting tables till 1:00 in the morning and then got up at 4.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:24

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:24

And that's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:25

Well, that's the kind of thing is, like, you know, places like that where, you know, they made such a mark on.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:32

Such a mark on the scene, and we're part of that generation of places.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:27:36

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:37

You know.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:38

Yes.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:39

It's a great opportunity, but sometimes you.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:41

Even if you could have done some of the work, like, you're not.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:45

You might not be ready for that kind of thing either.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:27:47

Yeah, it would have.

John: 00:27:49

That might have been cool exposure.

John: 00:27:51

I think Dana Cree was there at the time, and she's awesome.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:54

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:27:55

So you end up back in Boston and you start actually working.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:28:00

Yep.

John: 00:28:00

I worked well.

John: 00:28:01

I went back to the other side for a little bit.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:03

Yeah.

John: 00:28:04

But it was very different.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:28:07

Yeah.

John: 00:28:07

And then a bakery that I wanted to work out was hiring, so that place.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:14

I forget the name that you were saying yesterday.

John: 00:28:16

Clear Flower Bread.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:18

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:18

Because I looked that up while we were talking yesterday.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:20

I'm like, wow, I can't believe I've never actually been in there, because I've been to Boston so many times, and in that area.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:28:26

Yeah.

John: 00:28:27

It's in a neighborhood.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:28

Yeah.

John: 00:28:29

So it's not on a main road.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:30

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:30

Because that's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:31

That was Brickline, Right.

John: 00:28:32

It's Brookline.

John: 00:28:33

Almost Allston.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:35

Okay.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:35

Yeah.

John: 00:28:36

It's that weird confluence of streets where you're like, wait, this is that close to there.

John: 00:28:42

They don't seem like it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:43

I.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:44

I think that's the weird thing for me about Boston is I might.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:47

I might know one street over from there and have been there five times.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:28:50

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:51

And never have been across that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:53

Because I.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:28:54

Like, in that area, I'm trying to think is that the same area where 99 market is?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:01

That's not.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:01

No, that's not there.

John: 00:29:03

Do you mean the Asian market?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:05

Yeah, yeah, the one with all the stalls in it there.

John: 00:29:08

Oh, you know what?

John: 00:29:08

There is one near there by bu.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:11

Yeah, yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:12

It's in that same area.

John: 00:29:13

That's not that far.

John: 00:29:14

And that's actually what I was thinking.

John: 00:29:15

When I'm pointing, I'm like that area comm to the right, but then like just, just north of Coolidge corner to the left and you're like, these are only three blocks away from each other.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:26

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:26

And I.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:27

It's distinctly possible that I've gone a block and a half from there probably 50 times and never ran across that place.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:29:35

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:37

So that's a real bakery.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:29:38

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:39

And you got 40 years and you got the chance to really work that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:44

Work that and learn the craft of doing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:48

And we're going to define this for a second.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:50

Venus soisserie, which is Vienna style pastry work.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:29:53

Yes.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:29:54

So you got a chance to learn that not just from a theoretical or school thing, but actually doing it every.

John: 00:30:01

Day, all the time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:03

And that's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:04

You get to learn all the different aspects of it from, you know, how to do things at volume, how to do it at different temperatures, how to understand, you know, fermentation, how to not have things, wheat, butter, how to do this, how to do that.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:30:17

Yeah.

John: 00:30:18

We were lucky on the temperature side.

John: 00:30:20

We laminated in the 70 degree room.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:22

Oh, nice.

John: 00:30:24

Which is also where all the like flat most of the flour and the dry storage was.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:28

Makes sense because you don't want.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:30:30

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:30

You don't want your flour to get rancid.

John: 00:30:34

Yeah, the, the like specialty flowers, you know that they might have one 50 pound bag of.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:39

Or two.

John: 00:30:40

Those were kept out in the bread kitchen.

John: 00:30:41

But the, like the main workhorse bread flour, the harvest king, was kept in there.

John: 00:30:46

It was a whole wall of it.

John: 00:30:47

I remember the GM was constantly giving tours to people and I remember being in there laminating and she's just like, yeah, this is all our bread flour.

John: 00:30:54

We use £3,000 a week.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:56

Oh my God.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:57

Really?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:57

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:57

That's amazing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:30:59

That's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:00

That's such a crazy amount of flour.

John: 00:31:02

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:03

And of course that's coming in on pallets and then people are lifting it and bringing it in.

John: 00:31:08

Mainly one dude, we had a sort of a utility guy who checked in all the orders.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:13

Wow.

John: 00:31:14

And would.

John: 00:31:15

And also did like extra cleaning and stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:17

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:17

And that's 50 pound sacks of flour, which.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:21

That's a lot on your shoulders every day.

John: 00:31:24

Every day.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:25

That's amazing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:26

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:27

So that's a volume place, and you're doing huge amounts of that stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:33

And I remember, you know, when we were talking last night, I had looked at the pictures and noticed so many similarities between, you know, the quality of stuff that you do now and the shaping and how similar the shaping was to, you know, the way your croissants are shaped and the way you're.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:49

The morning buns are shaped to.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:51

To there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:52

I.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:52

It was so, like, the similarities to me visually were just striking.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:31:56

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:56

I've had your stuff so many times.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:31:58

I'm like, wow, that really is pretty similar, isn't it?

John: 00:32:02

That's.

John: 00:32:02

That's where I learned everything.

John: 00:32:04

That's where I learned what a morning bun was.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:05

Yeah.

John: 00:32:06

But like I told you yesterday, I stole the more of the flavored sugar from another place in Asheville.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:12

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:12

And that's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:13

It's another place where, you know, these kind of places popped up.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:32:17

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:18

You know, Asheville has this, you know, it's obviously part of an academic area and everything else, but it's an arts town, too.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:32:23

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:24

And a lot of these places kind of pop up in those areas where people just like, yeah, I got to do something, and let's do this.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:33

Let's try.

John: 00:32:34

Yeah, let's try.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:35

And I think there's opportunities in place like that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:37

Like, Boston's different.

John: 00:32:38

There's like 80 colleges.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:40

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:40

And the infrastructure is so rich and the amount of people is so dense.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:32:44

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:45

But, you know, cities like Rochester, cities like Asheville, you know, there's a lot of opportunity just to do things because you can.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:54

Boston, you know, the investment has to be so big.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:32:57

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:32:58

Or the space you have is so small.

John: 00:33:00

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:01

Or both.

John: 00:33:01

Real estate is expensive there.

John: 00:33:04

I don't really know too many people who have.

John: 00:33:06

Are doing things within the Boston proper anymore.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:10

No.

John: 00:33:10

Like the head bread baker when I was the manager of the pastry team has her own bakery now, but it's in the outside.

John: 00:33:20

And where is it?

John: 00:33:21

Medford.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:22

Oh, God.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:22

Yeah.

John: 00:33:23

So, like, on the other side of Tufts.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:25

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:25

Medford.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:25

Medford's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:26

Medford's a bit of a.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:27

That's a bit of a.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:28

That's a bit of a hole.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:33:29

Yeah.

John: 00:33:30

If you're in.

John: 00:33:31

In Boston.

John: 00:33:31

Yeah, it's pretty far.

John: 00:33:32

I lived in Somerville for three and a half years, so it was not.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:34

Oh, yeah.

John: 00:33:35

Not that far for me, but no.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:37

And it's, you know, it's such an interesting thing when you talk about Boston, how much, like, people consider that whole area is Boston.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:45

Yeah.

John: 00:33:45

Like the metro area.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:46

But it is.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:47

But it isn't.

John: 00:33:48

Not if you're there.

John: 00:33:49

No, not the people from Boston.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:50

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:51

People who aren't there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:52

The whole area is Boston.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:33:53

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:54

But as soon as you're there, it's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:55

It can be so insular.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:33:57

You know, the small areas where you can just spend so much time there, but each area has its own distinctness to it.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:34:05

Yeah.

John: 00:34:05

I mean, if you were across the river, they would not let you pass by saying, yeah, I was over in Boston the week you were in Cambridge.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:12

Well, that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:12

That's.

John: 00:34:13

That's not Boston.

John: 00:34:14

No, that's not Boston.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:15

No, that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:16

That one's definitively not y.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:20

So you're doing that, and then you end up doing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:23

You end up working at a donut place for a bit.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:25

Learn how to do that work.

John: 00:34:26

Yep.

John: 00:34:28

That was so hard.

John: 00:34:30

I don't have PTSD from it anymore.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:33

Anymore.

John: 00:34:34

It was so hard.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:35

Well, because I think what you're telling me yesterday was how many you did.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:34:39

Yeah.

John: 00:34:40

Now, I kept thinking about that because I know that's the number that I used to kind of settle on when I was doing it.

John: 00:34:45

And I think.

John: 00:34:46

Well, I wouldn't be exaggerating to myself.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:48

Yeah.

John: 00:34:48

Like, was it that much?

John: 00:34:50

Because I can't remember how much we did in the week.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:52

Yeah.

John: 00:34:53

But it was probably.

John: 00:34:53

If it wasn't 10,000 donuts a week, it was close to it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:34:56

Yeah.

John: 00:34:56

Because Sundays alone, we did 2,000 donuts, and we were sold out before 1:00pm wow.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:02

Well, it's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:03

That kind of thing is like that kind of thing was going.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:08

It hasn't happened.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:10

Didn't happen here.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:35:11

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:11

For a long time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:12

Like, there wasn't.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:13

There hasn't been a lot of places where things sold out immediately.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:35:18

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:18

Like, that kind of thing only happened in the last few years for the first time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:23

I remember when.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:24

When Saucy Chef was doing, you know, the.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:27

When, you know, when she opened and.

John: 00:35:30

When she was on Atlantic.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:33

And when everybody was calling and just to get in with a phone call, could take you an hour or longer to get in.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:41

By the time you called, everything was gone.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:35:43

Yeah.

John: 00:35:43

It reminds me.

John: 00:35:45

Side note.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:46

Yeah.

John: 00:35:46

There's.

John: 00:35:47

There's an old pizza place in the village of Fairport that I know well because we.

John: 00:35:52

I used to go there.

John: 00:35:53

I'm from there.

John: 00:35:55

Called tk, which is great pizza.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:56

I was going to say.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:57

It's something.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:35:58

Something Polly has mentioned to me.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:01

Like, his wife grew up in Fairport.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:36:02

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:03

Loves that place.

John: 00:36:04

I love TK's.

John: 00:36:05

TK's.

John: 00:36:06

Is like the 70s still in there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:07

Okay.

John: 00:36:09

And it's still just.

John: 00:36:10

You have to make a phone call.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:11

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:11

But kind of like, kind of like a place over on Culver.

John: 00:36:15

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:16

Why am I forgetting the guy's name?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:18

Anyways, keep on going.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:19

I'll pull his name up for a second.

John: 00:36:20

Well, anyway, if it, if it gets too busy, Tony will just take the phone off the hook and not answer the phone so you can't call.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:28

I love that so much.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:30

Well, because that, that's, it's such an old school thing to do.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:36:33

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:34

I'm like, yeah, well, what else are you gonna do?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:36

I'll think of Nino's over on Culver.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:36:38

Yes.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:39

Like you walk into there, nothing has changed.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:36:41

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:42

40 years.

John: 00:36:43

Exactly.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:43

That they've been doing this.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:44

And like, I love what he's, what he's, what he does there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:48

Because you can get something that is a slice of time.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:36:51

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:52

And nothing has changed.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:36:53

And that's an, it is an amazing thing to be able to get that still where people still care about what they're doing, but it is not, it's not modern in any way.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:37:04

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:37:05

And that, that's still, that's still a great thing.

John: 00:37:08

It's.

John: 00:37:08

Yeah, I love it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:37:09

Nothing wrong with that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:37:11

I think we're going to do, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to speed run our way back to Rochester and we're going to talk about everything that you're doing now.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:37:20

And we'll be right back.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:38:26

And we're back with the second half of our conversation with Black Cat Baking Company.

John: 00:38:32

Correct.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:38:33

Baking company.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:38:35

So where we left off, you making a God awful amount of donuts every day.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:38:42

You're learning the, the rising and falling of donut dough.

John: 00:38:47

Oh, God, yeah.

John: 00:38:48

If you don't have, you know, you're not set up to be a proper donut shop.

John: 00:38:52

It's.

John: 00:38:53

It's a real nightmare.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:38:55

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:38:55

Because it's, you know, it, you know, for most people, the only time they ever see the process of donut making was like Krispy Kreme when they, when you saw things going through.

John: 00:39:06

Sure.

John: 00:39:06

And those perfect little donuts.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:08

And amazing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:09

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:09

An amazing visual and amazing marketing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:12

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:12

Because they're not showing you the whole process, they're just showing you the glazing.

John: 00:39:15

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:39:16

Yeah.

John: 00:39:16

The cool little conveyor belt.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:19

Like astonishing marketing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:22

But the fact that that's happening means that everything else is also being mechanized.

John: 00:39:26

I, you know, there is a lot of automation in the donut world.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:31

It kind of has to be the.

John: 00:39:32

Bigger you get.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:35

Well and then you know, there's still like, there's still some old school spots around Rochester, you know, your Ridge Donuts and things like that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:42

But even then the volume that they do every day, like I've been there at six in the morning multiple times, picking up for, you know, for the office or somewhere else and there's people there waiting for the doors to open at 6:00 in the morning.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:39:58

Yeah, it's wild like and that's, there's something special about that when people are, if they're open, people are going to show up if they're good.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:40:05

Yeah.

John: 00:40:07

I used to go to hang out at like maybe the late 90s and hang out of Java's to like 2:00 in the morning when they closed.

John: 00:40:17

Basically 1:00 in the morning.

John: 00:40:18

And sometimes we would go to Brighton Donuts which is near 12 corners.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:40:23

Okay.

John: 00:40:24

It's open anymore.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:40:25

Another one of the old school kind of places like Ridge or, or Donuts delight.

John: 00:40:30

Yeah, it's 24 hours but really the middle of the night, nobody is manning the front.

John: 00:40:35

They're making donuts and they're so mad when you come there because they hear you milling around.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:40:43

There are a couple places like that still sometimes when you know Carrie's got a flight out to a convention and you know the flight she needs is like the 6am flight means I'm dropping her off at 4:45, 4:30 in the morning at the airport and there's so little that's open.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:03

But one of the places that opens at a God awful early time in the morning, 5:00 in the morning is Bagel Land.

John: 00:41:10

Hell yeah it is.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:11

And they're open at 5.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:13

There's no lights on.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:14

Yeah, you have to know it's open.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:16

They say they're open on the website on, on Google Maps, but the sign's not on.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:22

There's no lights on.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:24

You can go in.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:26

But are they open?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:29

Questionable.

John: 00:41:30

Do they have bagels?

John: 00:41:31

Yeah, maybe from yesterday.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:33

They have some.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:41:33

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:34

But I'll go in at that time and I'll, you know, somebody will eventually recognize that I'm there and I'm like, is there anything just out?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:42

They're like, well you can get this or this.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:43

I'm like, I'll take one of whatever is fresh.

John: 00:41:46

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:46

Because man, there's nothing, nothing like that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:49

Like you know, steaming hot in the center.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:41:52

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:52

You know, bagel still where you.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:55

It's one of those like it's only perfect for a certain amount of time.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:41:58

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:41:58

Because as soon as it cools off, it can still be really good.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:01

But that, you know, you don't have to toast it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:05

Bagel.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:05

Because it's so hot.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:07

It's one of those, like, luxury things when you get a chance to try that, you're like, oh, right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:13

This is why people said you shouldn't toast.

John: 00:42:16

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:16

This is why.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:17

Oh, why am I forgetting his name?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:18

Was that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:19

Was it Obegalos?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:22

The guy that was downtown on State Street.

John: 00:42:24

I don't remember.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:26

Anyways, this guy was.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:27

He was like.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:28

He had that soup Nazi like, attitude.

John: 00:42:30

Nice.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:31

Where he would not toast a bagel and he would not, like, do certain toppings on things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:37

Didn't even carry stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:39

He's like, no, you don't get it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:41

I'm doing it this way because this is what's good.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:42:43

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:44

I'm like, yes.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:45

That guy was awesome.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:47

Anyway, so that's like this.

John: 00:42:52

I remember.

John: 00:42:53

I remember Brian saying long before he opened Pizza Wizard.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:42:55

Yeah.

John: 00:42:56

You know, when we all have figured out, they're like, I just need something streamlined, not all the.

John: 00:43:01

The bullshit that's gonna bog everything down.

John: 00:43:03

And he was like, I'm just gonna open a place called Pepperoni Pete's.

John: 00:43:07

It's just pepperoni pizza.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:08

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:09

What do you want?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:10

That's what we got.

John: 00:43:11

That's what we have.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:12

Yeah.

John: 00:43:12

Slices of pepperoni pizza.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:14

And I gotta say, that's something they've also killed.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:16

There is efficiency.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:18

Like, the amount of volume they can pump out of that place is absolutely wild.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:43:21

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:22

It's impressive.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:23

And, you know, that is kind of that manifestation of that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:28

Of that style.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:29

It's amazing.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:43:29

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:31

So, yeah, that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:32

That experience of going to Java's late at night is the kind of thing that, you know, certain kind of person knows intimately is, you know, that vibe at that time of night.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:43:42

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:43

It was one of the few places you could hang out like that that wasn't just.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:46

Just a bar.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:43:47

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:47

Just be there.

John: 00:43:48

We'd hang out in the smoking room.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:49

Yeah.

John: 00:43:50

That used to exist, which is a.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:51

Thing at the time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:52

Yeah.

John: 00:43:53

It opened out onto the alley over the Barrett Alley or whatever.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:56

Oh, God.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:57

Wow.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:57

That's amazing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:43:58

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:00

So.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:02

So you're.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:03

You're back here, you're doing that kind of stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:05

And what.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:06

What was next after that?

John: 00:44:09

After the donuts?

John: 00:44:10

Yeah, for a little bit.

John: 00:44:12

I was making ice cream.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:14

Okay.

John: 00:44:15

Until we moved back.

John: 00:44:18

Um.

John: 00:44:18

Which was great.

John: 00:44:20

That was a great job.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:21

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:21

Well, it's very interesting because ice cream's another was things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:24

I was actually just talking with Travis Briggs from a Countertop creamery.

John: 00:44:28

Okay.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:29

He's been, you know, kind of on that, like, pop up grind of making ice cream and learning all the techniques and doing all that stuff.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:44:37

Oh, yeah.

John: 00:44:37

I've been, I've been doing it a long time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:39

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:39

I think it's fascinating to talk to somebody who's like, you know, he's, you know, he's got a, he's got a good base now and he's figuring out how to do flavors and how to work around everything.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:51

And I love talking to somebody who's like, still, you know, he's fairly new into this.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:44:56

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:57

And he is, you know, doing this.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:44:59

This is the thing he's learning.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:00

And then like, oh, yeah, I also could do ice cream really good.

John: 00:45:05

Well, I don't have a good ice cream maker, but yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:08

Yeah.

John: 00:45:08

That was the thing I did.

John: 00:45:10

I mean, I learned how to make ice cream in pastry school.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:12

Yeah.

John: 00:45:13

It's always been on the table.

John: 00:45:14

It's like, we're gonna get there eventually.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:16

Yeah.

John: 00:45:17

As soon as I figure out how to do business instead of just making things.

John: 00:45:24

Just making stuff, instead of just surviving.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:26

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:27

So.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:28

And then you, you end up coming back to Rochester.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:31

What year did you end up coming back?

John: 00:45:32

,: 2000

John: 00:45:36

Yeah, probably 10 years ago last week.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:38

Okay.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:39

So at that point, I think I was just finishing up my run of writing restaurant reviews in the city and had just started doing the podcast, had done the website.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:49

And what did you end up doing when you got back?

John: 00:45:53

I worked at Rocco.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:55

Okay.

John: 00:45:55

For five years.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:56

Shout out to Mark Coopolo.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:45:58

He made a lot of, made a lot of boudinos, I'm sure.

John: 00:46:01

I didn't make any boudinos.

John: 00:46:02

I was just doing three days a week expediting.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:05

Oh, really?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:06

Man, that place is a machine, though.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:46:08

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:08

It's, you know, consistency.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:11

That place is, you know, so similar to what it was then, to what it was when it opened.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:46:17

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:17

And Mark had such a clear vision about what it was going to be and how consistent it was going to be.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:22

And, man, I, I love him for that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:25

Like, he knew exactly what it was.

John: 00:46:27

There's a fair amount of chaos behind the scenes, but you never, you never know about it right out front.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:33

And when people go, they know what to expect.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:35

They expect a certain kind of thing and that's what they end up delivering on.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:46:39

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:40

In so many ways.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:41

So you end up there, you know, it's in a place where you, you know, there's so many people that go through there.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:46:47

Yeah.

John: 00:46:49

What I worked, I was working there and At Wegmans.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:46:52

Okay.

John: 00:46:53

Which is somewhere I swore I would never work.

John: 00:46:56

It happened for a couple years and, well, Danny will probably have me killed.

John: 00:47:05

I call it the Fakery, not the bakery.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:08

Yeah, well, I mean, it does what it does.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:10

Right.

John: 00:47:10

It's doing a thing.

John: 00:47:11

And then they don't have to pay people who have specialized jobs and stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:14

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:15

And it, you know, the volume's crazy.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:16

And now it's all in one centralized location.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:20

Probably out near the airport, you know, the giant building out there.

John: 00:47:22

A lot of stuff gets made on Brooks Ave.

John: 00:47:24

And then there's some things from.

John: 00:47:25

I think they just outsource.

John: 00:47:27

Probably near Syracuse and around New York State.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:29

You have to.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:30

I mean, the volume that they do now is like abs.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:32

It was crazy then.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:33

It's even crazier now.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:47:34

Yeah.

John: 00:47:36

And I was doing this.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:37

Yeah.

John: 00:47:38

Because I started doing this probably a couple months after moving back.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:41

Did you really?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:42

I didn't know it was that early.

John: 00:47:44

Yeah, I mean, there was a couple things, but then I don't know if it had a name yet.

John: 00:47:50

Probably not till: 2015

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:52

You just started doing it?

John: 00:47:53

Yeah, well, I did a couple things for.

John: 00:47:55

For the Owl House.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:47:56

Okay.

John: 00:47:57

For like events or whatever.

John: 00:47:58

And then what else?

John: 00:48:02

Well, and then Rory was doing pop ups and so I was making scones for his pop ups.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:06

Yeah, I remember that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:08

Was.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:09

Was I the first one?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:11

Because I was.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:12

Yeah, I remember when he started because I remember him from, you know, the Joe Bean days.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:16

Yeah, he didn't work the days I was there as regularly, but you know, he was a daytime kind of guy there and.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:24

But I do remember him from there.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:26

And I remember when he's doing the pop up and this is just when, you know, the coffee scene was just starting to expand.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:48:32

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:32

In Rochester, like Fuego had their place over near Liberty Pole.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:36

And you know, what was it at the time?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:42

Was it poor?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:48:44

Oh yeah.

John: 00:48:44

Poor.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:48:45

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:45

Over on Park Ave.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:47

Yeah, I think it was poor.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:48

Which has changed names like five times.

John: 00:48:51

Glenn, Edith.

John: 00:48:51

I think it's the same owners.

John: 00:48:52

They just had to change the name.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:54

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:54

The Due to season desist out in Ohio.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:48:59

Yeah, we had to deal with that at one point with Curate.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:01

We got season desisted out in Buffalo.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:04

Speaking of which, I don't know if this is going to come out before or after, but make sure you listen to our two part episode talking about the entire experience of doing our Pop up series.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:13

Nominate.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:14

We did two hours and I think.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:17

I don't know if I'm going to edit that part out.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:18

It got a little Bit heated talking about the cease and desist.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:21

But so, no, it's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:25

I just, I didn't know you had started doing it that early because I was, you know, very present at that time.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:30

Remember going to the first pop ups that he was doing over like Fiorella and other places on market days.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:49:37

Yeah.

John: 00:49:38

I don't think, I don't know that I was bringing anything to him at Fiorello, but I was definitely hanging out with him at Fiorella.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:44

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:44

And I'm sure we ran across each other at some point.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:47

So, you know, you're doing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:49

You're doing multiple different things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:51

And you know, I also had an.

John: 00:49:54

Infant at the time too.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:55

Did you really?

Unknown Speaker C: 00:49:56

Yeah.

John: 00:49:56

So.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:49:57

Wow.

John: 00:49:57

Which I was doing a lot of that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:58

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:49:59

So you're at that point, you're starting that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:04

Did you know where you were going with it or you just like, I just need to do this too?

John: 00:50:10

Well, I knew I wanted to start something when I moved back.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:12

Yeah.

John: 00:50:14

But.

John: 00:50:15

And something of a direction that I wanted to go in.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:18

Yeah.

John: 00:50:19

But beyond that, not really.

John: 00:50:20

It was just kind of, as it still is, it's just kind of going.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:24

So you end up.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:25

You're doing multiple things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:27

You start to peel those off or are you doing different things on the side of that?

John: 00:50:33

Oh, what do you mean?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:35

On the side of Black Cat.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:36

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:36

So you're.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:37

So you're working at Rocco, you're doing Wegman stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:40

Did you rotate other things around that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:42

Did you peel those off as you were, you know, growing what Black Cat was?

John: 00:50:48

Honest to say, I don't remember when I quit Wegmans, but I had wanted to do it from the time I started.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:53

Yeah.

John: 00:50:54

But I don't remember when I quit.

John: 00:50:57

Maybe: 2018

Chris Lindstrom: 00:50:58

Yeah.

John: 00:50:59

Yeah.

John: 00:50:59

I think I worked there for three years.

John: 00:51:02

And then Rocco was just because Covid happened and then like the business kind of changed there.

John: 00:51:06

And for sure, both, both me and Russ just decided to start paying more attention to our own businesses.

John: 00:51:12

And I was like, I think I can do this and pay my bills.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:15

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:16

So that was the time where you kind of ramped it up a bit more.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:51:19

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:21

So at that point you're, you know, you've been doing it for a while and then you ramp up that side and you're baking still out of your house.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:51:33

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:33

And obviously, you know, a commercial bakery, you know, with, you know, this is an official commercial bakery.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:40

Not, you know, a lot of people start out of their houses.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:51:42

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:43

You know, and I don't.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:44

I'm not throwing shade at anybody who does that, because lots of businesses that we know and love start with, you know, things that were unlicensed and undone.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:53

Yeah, totally.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:54

Lots of people have done that.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:51:55

And I think, you know, having that lack of, you know, the, the lack of need for huge infrastructure and like, hey, if there's enough demand, I can try and I can learn how to do this.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:52:08

Yeah, obviously you'd already learned how to do it.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:52:10

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:52:11

But, you know, now you're doing it that way and you start, you grew that that way.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:52:16

Yeah.

John: 00:52:17

And then.

John: 00:52:18

Yeah, just keep, just keep going on.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:52:21

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:52:21

Now you keep on doing it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:52:23

And so you have a wide variety and kind of what I want to dive into from, you know, here until we finish is I kind of want to dive into, you know, the style of work that you do.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:52:35

Because, and I'll say this off the bat is when I first had your stuff, I have no governor on my nerdery when it comes to food and bev.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:52:49

I'd kind of transition around: 2020

Chris Lindstrom: 00:53:00

And when I tried that stuff for the first time, I'm like, God damn it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:53:06

Thank God somebody, somebody's doing this with these ingredients and doing such a good job that it's irrelevant whether or not it was vegan or not that it was going to be that good.

John: 00:53:18

Yeah, I think I remember that being my point back then.

John: 00:53:21

It's hard to remember what I was thinking at the time or what I was telling people, but yeah, it was kind of like, well, a, as if you may recall, lots of vegan stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:53:31

Yeah.

John: 00:53:31

Not just everywhere was always treated often.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:53:35

As an afterthought almost, let's say the vast majority of time, it's like, oh, we're gonna sell it to you because it's vegan.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:53:41

Yeah, I, I, I can't even, I cannot overstate how much I hate that as somebody who cares about quality first, like, yes, that's how I have chosen to eat.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:53:56

You know, eat and drink, generally speaking.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:53:59

But how much I hate being talked down to, like, treat me with respect.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:05

Like, I care about quality, like, first and foremost, and when I have to not get something good, I just won't buy it.

John: 00:54:12

Yeah, yeah, you were getting anybody who knew what they were doing with food, they weren't vegan.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:18

Right.

John: 00:54:19

And so it was being treated as an afterthought.

John: 00:54:21

And then people who often, it's not everybody, but oftentimes for a long time you were encountering people who really cared about being vegan, didn't know anything about making food.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:31

Agreed.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:31

And it was like, oh, you know, they, they wanted what they wanted and it was purely a, purely a health decision.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:54:38

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:38

And it was like, oh, that everything else is irrelevant and you know, food is fuel and Good.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:44

Great.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:44

Good for you.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:45

Enjoy it.

John: 00:54:46

You get a lot of things made with dates and you know, carob.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:54:49

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:52

One of, one of the worst things, worst ingredients in the world actually.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:54:56

I wonder, I wonder nowadays if it actually is a good ingredient.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:00

It was never just treated well.

John: 00:55:03

That's a good question.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:04

It's one of those like every so often I have these little like moments of nerdery.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:08

I'm like, I wonder if it actually is a good ingredient.

John: 00:55:11

But like when Brussels sprouts had their renaissance.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:14

Yeah.

John: 00:55:14

Oh shit.

John: 00:55:16

Don't boil them till they're slimy.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:18

Don't boil them.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:19

And also that they happen to like, you know, cross breed it to reduce bitterness.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:55:23

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:24

Over 20 years.

John: 00:55:27

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:28

It's one of those things where, where you learn actually how everything happened.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:32

Yes.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:32

It's because of cooking techniques also.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:35

But they also actually just cross bred them so they're less bitter and more enjoyable.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:55:39

Yeah.

John: 00:55:41

It's like ancient bananas were like inedible because they were like woody.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:45

Yeah, of course.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:47

And then.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:47

Oh, we homogenized bananas where the only banana everybody knows is one banana.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:55:51

Yeah.

John: 00:55:52

So the Cavendish.

John: 00:55:53

Is that what we.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:54

Cavendish bananas.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:55

Yep.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:56

You can actually get an occasional other variety.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:55:58

Like at Wegmans you can get the little red ones.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:56:00

Yeah.

John: 00:56:01

They're actually really good because the old ones had a blight and they're all gone basically.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:07

And that's also where the banana flavor was derived from.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:10

Was that.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:56:10

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:11

Was those old bananas.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:12

Which is why nobody understands banana flavor.

John: 00:56:15

As a flavor because we're not old enough to have eaten those bananas.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:21

So anyways, let's, let's.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:22

So my thoughts.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:24

So the technique and everything else that was the part that gravitated me to what you do and started to fascinate me with everything you did, was when I got something, I knew it was going to be good.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:37

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:38

Because I knew I could trust your technique.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:42

I could trust you as a producer having not met you because I saw, I saw the base, right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:49

You could, you could see the base of technique in everything.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:53

Like, oh, cool.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:53

I don't have to worry about it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:54

I don't have to think about it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:55

I just buy what he makes.

John: 00:56:57

Awesome.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:56:57

And that makes me happy because like your, your vegan laminated stuff Is texturally so good?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:57:07

Was that a big challenge, learning how to do that on that side of things?

Chris Lindstrom: 00:57:11

Or is it just, hey, I know what we need to do to get there, but I don't know exactly everything to do yet.

John: 00:57:17

That was actually the easiest thing to figure out really.

John: 00:57:20

Out of having to veganize so many other different things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:57:24

Yeah.

John: 00:57:25

There's a lot of like, oh, I'm going to do this.

John: 00:57:26

And then it's like the day before, I'm like, oh, I didn't figure out how to make that one part vegan.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:57:34

What's, what's, what's one of those little.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:57:36

One of those challenges.

John: 00:57:37

That's usually some, it's usually something involving some kind of.

John: 00:57:41

I have a better idea now.

John: 00:57:42

Usually something involving some sort of filling.

John: 00:57:45

Pastry cream or some sort of like cream or custard or.

John: 00:57:49

God, I made some terrible.

John: 00:57:52

What was it?

John: 00:57:54

I think it was clafouti, which is a kind of custard kick.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:57:57

But it's, but it's also one of those like.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:01

So it's, it's a hard to describe.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:04

Look it up.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:04

It's a French word.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:05

It's got lots of vowels in it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:08

If you type it kind of like it sounds, you might find it.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:12

But it's one of those things that is such a specific group of textures.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:58:18

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:19

With cream and everything else.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:20

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:21

So it's got pastry cream and it's creamy and custardy.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:25

Does it have pastry cream in it?

John: 00:58:26

It's not pastry cream.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:27

It's just, it's just the way it ends up.

John: 00:58:29

It's a custard and when you bake it, it comes out.

John: 00:58:32

It's a baked custard.

John: 00:58:33

Which comes out cakey.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:34

Yeah.

John: 00:58:35

Because of the almond flour and whatever, you know.

John: 00:58:36

But it is, you know, not a different kind of cake texture than like a sponge cake.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:41

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:42

And it's such a specific, weird texture and eggs are a huge part of that.

Unknown Speaker C: 00:58:46

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:46

And you know, some of the vegan egg substitutes do a good job at what the specific things it's good at.

John: 00:58:53

And I don't often use any of those things.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:58:56

Yeah, that's fair.

John: 00:58:57

So I'm not crazy about using.

John: 00:58:59

I have this.

John: 00:59:00

It's a double edged sword.

John: 00:59:01

I'm not into using like a lot of specialty ingredients.

John: 00:59:05

Like what if Wegmans doesn't have that or something.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:59:07

Sure.

John: 00:59:08

Or wherever I have to go.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:59:09

Yeah.

John: 00:59:10

On the other hand, I then don't give a shit about like ordering from a fancy food importer.

John: 00:59:16

I know, like shit from Spain.

John: 00:59:18

I'm like, yeah, I need, I need this, this emulsifier thing.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:59:23

I need fancy hydro colloids.

John: 00:59:25

Yeah, exactly.

John: 00:59:27

I guess those are also specialty ingredients that I, I'm fine with having.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:59:31

Thank you.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:59:31

Ferran Adria.

John: 00:59:35

Or his brother Albert did the pastry.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:59:37

Yes, yes, he did.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:59:39

And it's, you know, the Audrey family, you'll, you know, change so much things about modern culinary techniques.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:59:46

Especially if you need to use some of these, some of these emulsifiers or.

John: 00:59:51

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 00:59:52

You know, those things that are now available in a way that they weren't, you know, 20 years ago, where now you can get these relatively available on giant, you know, giant online retailers and they just show up at your door.

John: 01:00:07

That's great.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:00:08

Yeah.

John: 01:00:09

I usually, I'll often order from a.

John: 01:00:11

An importer called Albert.

John: 01:00:13

Albert Ooster, which has all the good stuff.

John: 01:00:16

The issue, the issue is that, well, one that's not for your regular home person because you're going to get a big like 700 grams.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:00:24

Right.

John: 01:00:24

A big tube.

John: 01:00:25

But also it's a.

John: 01:00:27

They just charge you $30 for shipping, regardless of what you order.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:00:30

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:00:30

Or you're like, you're getting chocolate and it's by the, you know, by the.

John: 01:00:34

You're getting 22 pounds, right.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:00:36

It's like one brick of 22 pounds of chocolate and it's like, oh, okay.

John: 01:00:40

Yeah, I've gotten them before and it's such a pain in the ass.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:00:42

Right.

John: 01:00:42

Maybe they're £11, but it's big.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:00:44

But you're shaving this or you're melting the whole thing and you're doing.

John: 01:00:48

I hate shaving chocolate.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:00:50

It's got to be just awful at volume.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:00:52

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:00:53

Unless you have like, like a shaver or something.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:00:56

Yeah.

John: 01:00:57

We at Clear Flower the.

John: 01:00:58

Was the retail staff, that was some of their side work, so we didn't have to.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:03

Oh, that sounds just awful.

John: 01:01:05

They had to zest and juice everything and shave chocolate, man.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:09

And that.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:09

That's one of those things.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:10

Like, you know, it is an amazing luxury that we have, like high level cocktail bars that are actually juicing stuff on a fairly regular basis.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:17

And we get fresh this and then you're zesting and all those things.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:21

But it's a lot of work.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:22

It's not easy.

John: 01:01:23

No.

John: 01:01:25

We were gonna buy them a little juicer, you know, a little thing that you're gonna hurt your knuckles on if you slip.

John: 01:01:30

But the owner of the bakery told us we weren't allowed to like.

John: 01:01:35

Oh, you're just a sadist.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:38

Well, I am the owner of an establishment, of course.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:01:41

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:43

So, yeah, I love that, too.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:45

Because, like, basically you're on a problem solve.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:48

Problem solving.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:48

Because, like, hey, I want.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:49

I'm going to make this thing.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:01:50

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:51

And then you're like, all right, can I make that thing?

Chris Lindstrom: 01:01:56

But you've already said you're making it, so you're like, oh, well, let's figure it out.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:02:00

Yeah.

John: 01:02:00

There's a lot of.

John: 01:02:01

I try not to do that to myself, where I'm winging it at the last minute.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:05

Yeah.

John: 01:02:05

It happens more than I would care to admit.

John: 01:02:09

I'm actually happy with myself right now that I'm going to be testing a few things before actually offering them.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:15

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:16

What's.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:16

What's something you got in your head that you're hoping to test?

John: 01:02:19

Well, hopefully.

John: 01:02:21

Hopefully the end of this week or next week.

John: 01:02:24

Working out some panettone.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:27

Oh, nice.

John: 01:02:28

Vegan panettone.

John: 01:02:30

What was the other thing?

John: 01:02:31

Oh, nougat.

John: 01:02:32

French confection.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:34

I.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:34

I like that.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:35

I like that.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:36

You actually pronounced it the French way.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:02:37

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:39

Haughty son of a.

John: 01:02:40

Well, nougat is something else to Americans.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:46

I was gonna say.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:47

What's.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:47

What's.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:48

What's.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:48

I mean, assuming it's very.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:49

It's really the same kind of thing.

John: 01:02:51

But they probably have a similar process, but they are very different things.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:55

So what's.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:02:56

What's the difference in your head?

John: 01:02:57

Well, so, like, the new gas, like, you know, it's like a.

John: 01:03:01

It's a.

John: 01:03:01

You make a meringue and you're adding nuts, and I don't think there's any flour.

John: 01:03:07

I think it's powdered sugar.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:08

Yeah.

John: 01:03:09

And then you, you know, you pour it into your mold or whatever, sometimes on rice paper, which also gives it.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:15

A nice look, which is also wildly not that dissimilar from macarons.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:03:20

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:20

Like, it's a very similar.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:22

Yeah, it's a very similar thing, really.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:24

Just different.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:24

Different techniques, different technique, different shaping, but it's really very similar.

John: 01:03:28

There are so many things made with meringue.

John: 01:03:30

They're like, we're making a meringue again.

John: 01:03:31

That was, like, so much a pastry school.

John: 01:03:33

Yeah, we're making meringue again today.

John: 01:03:34

Like, oh, this is like a totally different product with the same four ingredients.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:38

Yeah, well, and that's the other thing.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:40

It's where you're like, oh, well, we change the kind of temperature of the sugar going in.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:45

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:45

Oh, we're streaming in hot sugar.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:47

And it's a completely different result than not bad.

John: 01:03:50

Yeah, this has gelatin.

John: 01:03:51

This doesn't have gelatin or something.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:53

But still, it's.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:54

It drives so many of those, you know, amazing creations.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:03:58

I love that you're.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:00

You're trying to drive that that way.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:04:02

Yeah.

John: 01:04:03

I don't know.

John: 01:04:03

I can't remember why it popped in.

John: 01:04:05

My head was like, oh, I can probably.

John: 01:04:06

You know what it was?

John: 01:04:07

I had some.

John: 01:04:09

I had some extra vegan egg white that I had made for something in the fridge, and I'm like, what the am I gonna do with that?

John: 01:04:14

I was like, I don't know why that just popped into my head.

John: 01:04:17

I'm like, oh, I can whip that.

John: 01:04:18

Yeah, that'll hold air.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:20

So are you doing that with.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:22

Because, you know, if you're doing it at home, people use, like, you know, it's really just like, you know, being liquid.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:29

Like, you know, your aquafaba kind of stuff, which it just has foaming characteristics.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:04:33

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:33

Where you can make mayonnaises from it.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:35

You can do other stuff with it.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:37

It holds an emulsification.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:39

It doesn't get wildly airy.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:04:41

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:41

But you can make rough, airy, like, pastry things with it.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:45

But it carries a flavor and other things.

John: 01:04:47

I don't really like aquafaba.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:49

Yeah.

John: 01:04:49

When I first heard about it or read about it maybe eight years ago, and I was like, this is fudgeing amazing.

John: 01:04:54

Yeah.

John: 01:04:55

I don't really.

John: 01:04:56

I don't think it's stable enough for anything I want to do.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:04:59

It is not.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:04:59

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:00

It does a job.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:01

If you need to use it.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:05:02

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:02

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:03

Like, if I wanted to make a quick.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:05

Like a quick mayonnaise or something or a sauce or something at home.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:05:08

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:08

Like.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:09

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:09

Can I whip it up with some oil and add stuff to it and it tastes good.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:12

Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:14

And I.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:15

I remember I did that, you know, the last.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:17

My only two nights cooking in a kitchen.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:19

I did the last two nights at Joe Bean.

John: 01:05:21

Oh, nice.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:22

And I made, like, in a lot a salad, but I wanted everything to be vegan, so I did, like, a miso aquafaba, you know, sauce, and worked out really nice.

John: 01:05:32

Nice.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:33

But, you know, it didn't matter if it was ultra thick or ultra rich or anything else, because it's going in a salad.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:39

Who gives a shit?

Unknown Speaker C: 01:05:39

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:40

Because it just needs to taste good and be creamy.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:42

But when you care about texture, everything matters.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:05:46

Yeah.

John: 01:05:47

You have to think about what are your ingredients do.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:49

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:50

Well, when it.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:51

When it's that key thing, when.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:52

Especially with something like, you know, your, you know, French nougat.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:05:56

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:05:56

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:05:57

But that's purely a textural experience.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:05:59

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:00

Because that airiness is so critical to the experience of enjoying it.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:06:04

Yeah.

John: 01:06:05

You let it set.

John: 01:06:06

You cut them into rectangles or whatever.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:08

And then could be chocolate covered or not.

John: 01:06:11

Correct.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:12

But it can be.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:12

Not too.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:13

Yeah, because it's delicious on its own.

John: 01:06:15

It's delicious.

John: 01:06:16

You can make.

John: 01:06:16

You can make them as chocolate.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:18

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:19

So, yeah, we're getting to the end, but I just want to go through some of the other things so you.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:24

So the laminated stuff, you know, that covers many different things from the morning buns to, you know, the croissants and everything like that.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:32

Danish is always creative fillings.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:35

I appreciate your dedication to trying different things when it comes to fillings.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:38

And a lot of it's just like, oh, a different flavor.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:41

Easy enough to do.

John: 01:06:42

Yeah, I know.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:43

That's.

John: 01:06:44

I've had to explain that to some people who are like, you're making, like, a crazy amount of different things all the time.

John: 01:06:49

And I'm like, it's like three different things.

John: 01:06:51

Just a flavor.

John: 01:06:52

You're just changing the shape and the flavor.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:54

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:54

Because, like, when I batch food at home, I often will do a very.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:06:58

It's a very similar thing.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:06:59

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:00

Like, I bought a 25 quart stock pot from Restaurant Depot, and I cook, you know, a bunch of a grain.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:06

I do a bunch of greens and then some sort of, you know, tofu or whatever, and, you know, whatever else I find at the market that day or I feel like doing.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:17

And then I pick a flavor.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:07:19

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:19

And they're like, well, you.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:21

What did you make?

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:21

I mean, I made food.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:23

I got all the ingredients I wanted, and then I picked a flavor.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:27

Sometimes it's something I see at the market.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:29

I'm like, oh, that's the flavor I'm going with today.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:31

I'm getting this.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:07:32

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:32

Like, oh, somebody had quarts of tomatillos.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:35

All right.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:35

I guess I'm making something Mexican today.

John: 01:07:37

Sweet.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:38

And then everything else is still the same.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:40

I'm still buying greens from Asia Food Market because I get them at $2.50 a pound for hearty greens.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:48

And.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:49

But I just made it Mexican flavored.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:51

But it's never a dish.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:07:53

Yeah, but that's one of the great things is, like, if you know what you're doing, it's really just a flavor change because the techniques are not that dissimilar.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:01

Like, oh, this has this much more water.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:03

All right.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:03

I got to cook it down a little bit more.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:05

No big deal.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:08:05

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:06

And once you know that, you need a certain amount of moisture in it where it's baking, and you need this amount of, you know, so it has that texture.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:14

It's just a formula.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:16

Yeah, I love formulas, by the way.

John: 01:08:19

You were very math oriented.

John: 01:08:20

I believe so.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:21

I spent this morning building an analysis tool for the wife so she could decide how much to pack for her upcoming convention.

John: 01:08:30

Nice.

John: 01:08:31

I mean, you'd love my.

John: 01:08:33

My ice cream stuff, which I haven't done in years, so I need to relearn the math.

John: 01:08:36

But it's all spreadsheet, so.

John: 01:08:38

So you're, like, balancing it correctly.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:40

I love spreadsheets.

John: 01:08:41

It's all percentages and, like.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:43

All right, on the way out, I'm going to show you the spreadsheet thing I did today.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:46

It's.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:47

It's.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:47

What a delight.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:48

So much fun.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:49

So, you know, you're doing the scones, which, you know, you see those in Ugly Duck all the time.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:53

It's a staple.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:56

Great texture, too.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:57

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:57

They're dense.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:58

These aren't.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:58

You know, they're not biscuits.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:08:59

You know, sometimes scones you'll have are.

John: 01:09:01

Really just biscuits, which was a thing.

John: 01:09:04

The thing Rory and I talked about because he wanted scones.

John: 01:09:07

Honestly, most of the things I make were things that he wanted.

John: 01:09:09

The reason I make so much vegan stuff is because Rory wants a vegan.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:12

Hey.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:13

Shout out.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:14

Shout out.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:14

To worry for, like, hey.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:15

And that's the thing is, like, people go in there, you don't care.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:09:18

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:19

If it's good, it's good.

John: 01:09:21

I should say.

John: 01:09:21

I wanted to make good vegan things for him.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:25

Yeah.

John: 01:09:26

Also some, like, well, you deserve to have stuff that is good to eat.

John: 01:09:30

But then that's also what he wanted at the shop for a while.

John: 01:09:33

The cinnamon rolls were not until I finally put in the time and figured out how to make them vegan.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:38

Figured it out.

John: 01:09:38

It's still good.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:39

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:39

Well, I gotta say, you know, I really appreciate that sentiment, though, is that doing something, you know, you might not have gone that direction if it wasn't for that.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:09:57

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:09:58

But that's enough.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:01

That's enough to have to go through the effort sometimes of doing that.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:10:06

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:06

It.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:07

It's turned out to be a very viable thing, you know, to do that because there's a market for that.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:10:11

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:12

But the fact that you.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:14

You had the chance to do that for somebody that you grew up with, you know, that, you know, I'm sure I'm.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:20

I'm not.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:20

I'm probably not overstepping.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:22

So when you.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:22

Somebody you love like a brother.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:23

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:23

Like, he's.

John: 01:10:24

Absolutely.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:25

And that's what.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:26

What a great thing to do that.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:29

To do that for somebody.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:10:30

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:31

And make their.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:33

Have them get to enjoy things in a way that they wouldn't have been able to enjoy things otherwise.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:38

Like, what a great result.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:40

If nothing else, that you got to do that for somebody that you love.

John: 01:10:44

Totally.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:45

That's.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:47

I.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:47

You only have so many opportunities to do that, you know, with something that you're, that you're great at and.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:53

Because it doesn't always cross over like that.

John: 01:10:55

Yeah, that's true.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:10:57

And I, I'm trying to cherish those opportunities when I have a chance to do something for somebody, whether it's, you know, somebody new that's, you know, somebody new like that, that you've gotten really close to.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:11

I've gotten to, you know, you know, work with like the behind the glass guys on growing their thing.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:16

You know, when Richard.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:17

I've got to spend a lot of time.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:18

Richard Clone.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:19

I got to spend a lot of time with him and not as much with Quajay, but like all those guys.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:24

Right.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:25

Anytime they ask for something, I'm going to use every, every tool in my arsenal to, to help them.

John: 01:11:30

Hell yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:31

Because what else do we have?

John: 01:11:33

Yeah, it's.

John: 01:11:36

I don't remember if it was from Star Trek.

John: 01:11:38

I didn't watch Star Trek.

John: 01:11:39

I feel like it was something Spock said.

John: 01:11:40

But it's all about love, right?

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:41

Yeah.

John: 01:11:42

The whole point.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:43

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:43

Well, that it's in, you know, we.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:47

To get to use what is something that's become the profession or you're greatest skills.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:54

Like I'm not making a spreadsheet for my wife because she asked for a spreadsheet.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:11:57

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:11:58

I'm doing it because, you know, she's, it takes her a lot of mental energy and emotions to go through that stuff.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:06

And I could solve mental anguish in an hour and a half of me sitting with a spreadsheet.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:11

It's not about the spreadsheet.

John: 01:12:13

No, of course not.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:14

It's because I, I love her and I want to, I want to help her.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:17

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:18

It feels good to use your skills and it is rewarding to do this, but still you got to make a great product and also you get to have a lot of people enjoy it.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:12:28

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:29

I love your stuff, man.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:30

It's.

John: 01:12:30

That's what I hear.

John: 01:12:31

I hear people enjoy.

John: 01:12:33

Like we talked yesterday.

John: 01:12:34

I'm like, I don't talk to people.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:35

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:36

And you.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:37

Because I, you know, I've run across you so many times there when you're dropping stuff off in the morning, you know, 7:00 in the morning, whatever time in the morning I get to see you.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:47

And we'd never had long conversations.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:48

We'd run each other a few times here and there.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:51

But I always knew that when we got to sit down, we're gonna have a good chat.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:12:56

I always knew we would get along because I knew how much you cared about what you did.

John: 01:13:01

Thanks, man.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:13:02

And that if nothing else, if I know that about somebody, I know we're going to get along.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:13:09

We might not have the same personality, but we're going to get along because if somebody cares hard about things like I do, man, I want to learn more about them.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:13:20

So I think we're gonna wrap up.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:13:22

We could talk more about technique all day.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:13:26

So again, where can everybody get the stuff?

Chris Lindstrom: 01:13:29

And where can people find you on social media so they can see the new things are coming up that they may have missed that they want to come back for?

John: 01:13:36

You can find it at Ugly Coffee Abundance Co Op or grass fed vegan Butcher.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:13:44

Yeah, butcher shop.

John: 01:13:45

Butcher shop.

John: 01:13:46

They're great.

John: 01:13:46

Go see them.

John: 01:13:47

Rob is cool.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:13:48

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:13:49

Really interesting guy.

John: 01:13:50

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram and Facebook.

John: 01:13:55

I think they're both Black Cat Baking Rock, which is.

John: 01:14:00

Which is also the website because Black Cat Baking Company was taken as a domain and somebody tried to sell it to me for like a lot of money.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:08

Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.

John: 01:14:10

No, no, that's all right.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:11

No, screw that.

Unknown Speaker C: 01:14:11

Yeah.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:12

But yeah, if you're.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:13

If you're looking for something, if you're.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:15

If you just want to try something really good, one Ugly Duck is an important hub of the community.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:20

If you are a person who wants to, you know, run into people that are doing great things, that's a place to do it.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:27

If you want to have great baked goods, that's a place to go.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:30

Do it.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:31

Any place that is buying from John at Black Cat, if you see any of his stuff anywhere around town, whether there or another place at some point, you see that if they're buying from him, you know, they care about what they're doing.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:43

So thank you so much for coming back today to record.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:48

Really enjoyed talking with you.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:51

Speaking of really enjoying things, if you're enjoying this conversation, make sure you go and check out other shows on the Lunchadore podcast network.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:14:59

Something I'm really excited about.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:15:01

We just started doing it is we're recording the audiobooks for all of the in this moment chat books.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:15:08

You're not going to hear them for a little bit, but if you're looking for an organization to support during this holiday season or otherwise, supporting in this moment is important.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:15:19

They're doing great work to highlight amazing members of the black, you know, members of the Rochester community, members that are about, you know, important black members of the community, written by black people, photographed by black people.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:15:33

ne of our signature things in: 2025

Chris Lindstrom: 01:15:46

So stay tuned for that and stay tuned for more from the Lunchadore Podcast Network and Food About Town.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:15:54

Thanks for listening to the Food About Town podcast.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:15:57

If you aren't already subscribed, what are you waiting for?

Chris Lindstrom: 01:16:00

Go to your podcast app of choice and make us your favorite podcast by subscribing and leaving a review if you can.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:16:06

Music for the podcast was created by the fabulous Taurus Savant.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:16:09

You can hear more of his work@taurusavant.bandcamp.com and make your presence known by seeing him perform live.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:16:16

Food About Town is a proud member of the Lunch Podcast Network.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:16:19

Oh no, here comes McKenna.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:16:22

This has been a presentation of the Lunchador Podcast Network.

Chris Lindstrom: 01:16:33

Crispy, crispy, crispy, savory, savory, savory.